EDGE Interview: Out Director Ira Sachs on New Film 'Passages,' that NC-17 Rating, & More

In "Passages," Ira Sachs' eighth feature, Paris-based filmmaker Tomas (Franz Rogowski) and his husband Martin (Ben Whishaw) cross paths with schoolteacher Agathe (Adèle Exarchopoulos) at a party after Tomas finishes shooting his latest film. Tomas and Agathe fall for each other hard and fast, but Tomas doesn't want to leave his husband. A love triangle forms, dictated by Tomas' irrational desire to have Martin and Agathe be fine with him flip-flopping between them, but Tomas' indecision leads to consequences that will change all of their lives.

Since the 1990s, Sachs has established himself as a singular voice through independent films like "The Delta" and "Forty Shades of Blue." His output over the last decade, with works like "Keep the Lights On," "Love is Strange," "Little Men," and "Frankie," cemented his status as one of America's strongest independent filmmakers working today. His films put the messiness of people front and center, and he shows no hesitation diving into the complex, and, at times, paradoxical ways human beings act and react between each other.

While Sachs' works provide rich explorations of things we encounter in our daily lives, his frank portrayals have been met with resistance. His 2014 drama "Love is Strange," about a gay couple forced to live apart after losing their apartment, received an R rating from the MPAA despite having no "inappropriate" content aside from some swear words. (Sachs appealed the rating but lost.) Now, the MPAA has given "Passages" an NC-17 rating, a decision that most likely has to do with a lengthy sex scene between Tomas and Martin.

For anyone who's seen "Passages" during its successful screenings at festivals like Sundance and Berlin, the NC-17 rating is absurd, with Sachs doing nothing more than showing a natural part of adults' lives. Luckily, the film's distributor, Mubi, rejected the rating, opting to release "Passages" as unrated, without making any cuts.

Days before EDGE sat down with Ira Sachs to discuss "Passages," the Los Angeles Times broke the story about the NC-17 rating. Before our brief but lively discussion about the film, its themes, and how he developed its look, we had to ask Sachs about his feelings on the ruling.

EDGE: When you saw the decision from the MPAA [about "Passages" receiving an NC-17 rating], were you surprised? Are you surprised at how, at this point in your career, this is a hassle you still have to deal with?

Ira Sachs: I wasn't surprised, because I had already gone through this, in almost a more depressing way, with "Love is Strange" getting an R rating. Look, I'm in Hollywood right now. I haven't been here in six or seven years for a reason. There's no place for personal filmmaking in this city anymore. It's done. Another exclusionary moment is painful for me, but it's also painful in the way it discourages other filmmakers from making free and open work about the important things in our lives. [The rating is] a warning to people to not make sexual images, particularly if two men are involved.

EDGE: "Passages" is set in Paris, and this is your second film in a row that was made in Europe. Was it your preference to want to work in Europe, or was it practical? As in, this is the way you can make a movie, so you're going to do it.

Ira Sachs: I have a relationship with Paris, which is real and long. I've had relationships there. I've had breakups there. I've had sex there. I've cried there numerous times. I feel very comfortable in that city, and in the culture of the cinematic history of France. So, it was organic, but it was also financial. It's a combination. I wouldn't have been able to make a movie like this in so many other cities because I don't know them as well, but I might have tried.

I would also say that, on sustaining a career as a gay man making films about my own life, you can see by my peers that it's almost impossible. I think gay filmmakers have turned away from the most personal stories because they want to keep making work.

EDGE: I haven't seen a film explore a love triangle like this before. What was it about this dynamic between a gay couple and a woman that you felt was worth exploring?

Ira Sachs: When I set out to make this film, I thought it would be about identity. But, given the actors in the film, and that they're from a different generation, it became a film about individuals. It's a film without labels. That's a shift I've seen in my own lifetime. It's also a film without shame. When I was younger, all my films were kind of driven by shame. There's a lot of pain and there's a lot of passion in this film, but there's no shame. I think that is also new, and it maybe has to do with a change to how people feel about queer desire.

EDGE: Locations play a vital role in the film. How did you work with your cinematographer, Josée Deshaies, on developing the role that these spaces play in your film?

Ira Sachs: I don't rehearse with my actors, but I spend four or five hours every day with my cinematographer for weeks on end. Figuring out the strategy of how to shoot the film is everything in the making of the film. [Asking] how we will photograph bodies in space is a rigorous conversation, and one that makes room for the pleasure of the image, color, and light. Josée and I have a shared understanding in terms of how we see space, so it was a very intimate, artistic relationship.

I also made a choice at some point in pre-production that, while this film is a realist drama, it's an unreal film. Decisions were made that were not tied to reality. We were equally interested in the unnatural expression of beauty through color and cinema. For example, Adele Exarchopoulos' wardrobe. It's not really the wardrobe of a Parisian elementary school teacher. It's the wardrobe of Brigitte Bardot. That was a conscious [choice], to elevate the bodies and the cinema to something powerful and pleasurable.

EDGE: A lot of the film takes place in transitory spaces, like stairwells, hallways, or restaurants. Even in his own apartment, Tomas is either intruding the space or retreating from it.

Ira Sachs: To me, it's a film about transition. I think of it as an action film. I don't feel that Tom Cruise can dominate the use of that word. I've made an action film. It's about how people move through space, and how they collide with each other.

EDGE: When you were casting the film, did you worry about chemistry between the actors? Or was it just a matter of choosing the actors you like and letting them do their thing?

Ira Sachs: I try to cast people who are compelling to me, and I believe that in doing so they will be compelling to others, including the rest of the cast and the audience. There's also a style of acting that I'm interested in, which is naturalistic and gives as much attention to silence as words. I try to create an atmosphere of pleasure and humor on set. It's the opposite of what you see in the beginning of "Passages." I approach the set differently than Tomas does. I think it's scary for the actors because they haven't rehearsed, but every day is potentially thrilling.

EDGE: How do you approach blocking your actors in a scene?

Ira Sachs: Blocking happens on the day of the shoot. There's not a lot of consideration [beforehand], and there's not a lot of language between the actors and myself which could get in the way. I try not to talk about motivation [or] subtext. I talk about movement and clothes. Those are the things that are important to me. [Laughs]

I would say that I come into a situation with a plan. I storyboard the entire film, and that's the work that I do. My role on set is a bit like a therapist, in the sense that I'm a very good listener. My job is to be attentive to where things get cloudy. I try to detangle the places where things don't have clarity, but I also try to give room for discovery in the actors. I think of every scene as a form of emotional improvisation. The script is 90% followed, but you're watching the actors hearing each other for the first time.

"Passages" opens in theaters Aug. 4.